2.5% More Expensive Next Year

by **MacDuff** » 10 Jul 2010, 00:13

I was unaware that wee Gordie had made interventions which did much to avoid disaster (it wasn't reported in Canada - even by the BBC.) I thought that the Northern Rock shambles and the necessary purchase by the U.K. taxpayers of RBS were a consequence of lack of proper legislative controls by the U.K. Government. I have been under the impression that the U.K. banks were operating under U.K. law, not that of the U.S. Our banks operated under Canadian law and have not required a single dollar of taxpayers money. We live next door to the U.S., and one would imagine that if the U.S. is to "blame" for the U.K. misfortunes under wee Gordie that we too would have been affected.

Is the U.S. also to blame for the Greek massive debt - or is that a consequence of the Greeks spending a lot more than they earn? How much does a Grecian Urn? To take that a step further, does the U.S. also hold responsibility for the economic mess in Spain, Italy et al?

I am not defending the U.S.. GREED on Wall Street and a failure by the U.S. Government to support Lehmans, had an effect upon the majority of the developed countries. But the drastic fall in the value of the pound stg. and the euro - as compared with the Canadian (not U.S.) dollar appears to be indicative of economic woes in the U.K. consequent to wee Gordie's reign, initially as Chancellor and then as unelected Prime Minister.

I had thought that Blare (call me Tony) was a big boy, muched loved by the majority of the "left" in the U.K. To transfer responsibility for HIS actions - supported by HIS government to the U.S. takes real imagination. Again, we live next door, and we didn't get involved in Iraq. What the U.K. got in Brown and Blair is what the electorate of the U.K. voted for. That is the reality!

There is nothing in the actions necessarily taken by the new U.K. coalition government that could not be anticipated. 68% of GDP is a MASSIVE level of debt. Now it is time for "user pay". Yes, many of us who contributed little or nothing to the "New" Labour mess, will be severely affected, but that is the legacy left by wee Gordie - can't blame the U.S., can't blame the Conservatives or the Liberals. Just blame those that supported Blair and Brown, and you can't go wrong!

by **MacDuff** » 10 Jul 2010, 00:26

Sorry, I omitted to answer the question about "protestors". It was not government or government agencies who burnt cars, smashed windows,and stole property. It may be that there are some in some countries who think such action reasonable and term such people "protestors". Here, we regard them as criminal thugs.

We have a long history of protest, to the extent that real protestors cooperate with the authorities and obtain licences to protest. This is for exampole what the Unions did. We had many protest for example related to the Olympics in Vancouver. Virtually no violence - same Police forces.

Note that I reported the protesting Unions objecting to the thugs. In Canada as a democratic society, the Police have a duty to maintain law and order. That ought not to be a strange concept for those who live in the country of birth of Robert Peel!

by **D and E** » 10 Jul 2010, 10:42

It is my understanding that the greed of the US banks resulted in them lending to individuals and institutions of low credit standing which will always end in disaster. The "special relationship" that Blair and Bush had (Thatcher and the clown Regan boasted about it) may or may not have encouraged GB banks to buy a great deal of this toxic debt - as they say the rest is history :cry:

As for the electorate in GB, role on the referendum next year and hopefully we will move to a fairer voting system - and that will be thanks to the Libs as Cameron is against change.

by **Sunshine** » 10 Jul 2010, 12:41

...I remember a quote from a mate of mine in the banking industry, attributed to his boss...."if they can breathe, give them the loan...says it all...

by **FLO** » 11 Jul 2010, 00:06

Tony Blair - Loved by the left - how far right are you???????

I can't believe the greedy bankers are getting away with this. Many should be in jail, but the very shaky coalition prefers to save its own skin and blame Labour. Many a principle sacrificed at the alter of power and all that........

by **Kojak** » 11 Jul 2010, 16:38

The bankers began it all and yes, they should be punished. Stopping bonuses and insisting on sensible salaries would be a start. The excuse they always come up with is that they must pay high salaries to attract people with the expertise and qualities needed. So why didn't that apply to the last lot? The previous government must also take a lot of blame for continually spending more than it had coming in and leaving us with no gold reserves to speak of.

by **bill** » 11 Jul 2010, 18:20

We have no money, it's all gone...

The Government set-up the FSA to control the City of London and other financial services.
Did they stop x4+ mortgages, did they keep credit card companies in check, did they stop hedge-funding.... A big fat NO!

The banks' were taken over and the financial support was given before any real agreement on the future governance of the 'publicly' owned banks.

I feel that one of the main failings of the Labour Government was the lack of long-term planning, which has become de-facto these days. Bonuses should not be paid on a 12 month period, but 24 months. Close the books on the 12 months and revisit 12 months later.
Executives should be on a 5 year bonus scheme to fit with their elected positions and no golden hand-shakes for failure. No bonuses should be paid by a company that makes a loss.

A true Labour legacy, Lord Prescot, what did he do again?

by **D and E** » 11 Jul 2010, 18:41

Prescot taking a Lordship says it all about "New Labour" I'm afraid

such a disappointment.

by **benedetti** » 14 Jul 2010, 11:49

Bring back the New Left of the seventies I say.

by **FLO** » 15 Jul 2010, 22:20

Lets hope that it happens soon Bernedetti, we really need some socialist values in England. Privatisation of education and the NHS through he front door (never mind the back) at the moment... We could learn a few things from Greek solidarity.....

by **FLO** » 15 Jul 2010, 22:34

Is it just me - or does socialism equal a fair and just society and capitalism results in the mess we are in now?

by **MacDuff** » 16 Jul 2010, 06:46

Hi FLO and welcome! This is an interesting debate. The "mess" we are in now, is a consequence of socialism (called the Labour or altenatively New Labour Party which was in power in the U.K. for the last 13 years). At the end of that period, the U.K. debt is equivalent to 68% of the GDP. Nobody argues about that. That may represent a fair and just society to some, but in reality it has placed the whole U.K. economy in a mess, and everybody will suffer the consequences. The U.K. debt is larger than that of Greece.

When referring to the U.K. banking mess, we should consider the proper role of government. That being that of lawmakers and regulators. The FAILURE of the Labour (ie: socialist) government under Blair and Brown, to APPLY PROPER REGULATIONS to the U.K. banks, is the reason why they-the U.K. banks- got into a mess. Not a single bank in Canada required any form of government support. The Canadian taxpayers did not have to pay a single dollar to the banks. The reason? ---- proper regulation.

At the G8 and G20, there were some countries, the U.K being one of them, who favoured the introduction of a form of world tax on the banks to build up a reserve kitty of cash to bail them out in the future. Canada opposed such a tax being imposed world wide, because we don't need it because we have sound regulations.

It is no use the U.K. population trying to blame somebody else or some other country for incompetance on the part of the U.K. Government. Remember Mr. Pickwick's injunction, New Labour didn't!! For years, the expenditure exceeded the income. Such was Gordon Brown's achievement, initially led by Blair and then by himself.

The U.K. is burdened by the "politics of envy" whereby folks spend their mental energy concentrating on how to bring down the other fellow. Some other countries have got beyond that. We here, don't really care which school was attended by whom. Nobody wastes time attacking fee paying schools such as Upper Canada College. Who should really care where Anthony Wedgewood-Benn, Third Viscount Stansgate attended school? Does it matter?

Spain and Greece have got socialist governments, each of which has now got to look REALITY in the face. Years ago, I heard it said that "A degree in Sociology is a degree in wishful thinking." The U.K. has sadly had a prolonged period of wishful thinking - others are not to blame for the consequences. It will take grit and determination for the U.K. to drag itself out of the mess and it will take many years to do so. Better to get the act together!

D and E started this discussion by commenting that the ConDem Government have made it 2.5% more expensive" to visit Symi next year.
The New Labour socialist Government of Mr. Brown, reduced the value of the British Pound by FORTY NINE PERCENT against the Dollar in just two and a half years! From $2.91 to the pound, to $1.49. How's that for success?

by **Kojak** » 16 Jul 2010, 12:34

I always call myself a "Macmillan" tory - gas, water, electricity and rail transport kept as public utilities - run efficiently of course and with the customer and not the shareholders as first priority. I rarely agree with Macduff but I do agree that proper banking regulations should be put in place. I cannot understand why this bonus methodology sgould be considered essential. Being of a certain age I can remember things working perfectly well without it. People got a good salary for doing a good job. the bonus system is divisive and has proved to attract the "get rich quick" boys who are more interested in the money than doing a job well.

by **FLO** » 16 Jul 2010, 23:32

Hi Macduff thanks for the welcome - are you psychic? as I do have a degree in Sociology from Warwick University - of which I am proud. It has served me well in my life and I am now a social worker for people with mental health dificulties - which is 'reality' unfortunately and not 'wishful thinking'. The Blair and Brown government, definately was not socialism either, unfortunately they chummed up to The Bankers whom I believe are responsible for the Debt we are in now. I also believe we would be in an even worse if the Torys had been in power- capitalism with no limits. Class is still an incredibly important issue in the UK, it effects the opportunities you have in life.It has nothing to do with envy,thats such a selfish way of looking at it - but its to do with fairness and equality of opportunity. Its great that we disagee isn't it and I can't imagine either of us changing each others opinion either.....

by **D and E** » 18 Jul 2010, 11:25

Welcome Flo. Like yourself I also disagree with MacDuff but I do find his posts interesting and of course respect his freedom to promote the free market economy. I am afraid that government is too easily swayed by big business and "New Labour" (old torries in reality) fell into that trap and were afraid to regulate their chums in the city in case they wondered off to Frankfurt or further afield - avoiding regulated Canada. I do agree with Kojak about public utilities and detest the way that the NHS is described as a business (rather than a service) - something that Thatcher started through her small minded corner shop economics mentality. The ConDem bunch have already started attacking the public sector and will continue to sell off public assets cheaply and put public services into the hands of the profit fixated private sector. All rather depressing.

by **bill** » 19 Jul 2010, 10:22

Let's change a few words and I'm sure it will read in a similar fashion

Pre-liberation:

I am afraid that government is too easily swayed by greed and "New Labour" (old socialists in reality) fell into that trap and were afraid to regulate their chums in the supermarket giants arena.

To run a services you need to know expected expenditure, you can not just pour money into a black hole and hope.
Didn't we have the same under the Labour Government, when it too bankrupted the country after only 2 years of the initiation of the NHS? Isn't that why we have to pay for our teeth and eyes?
My other half works for the NHS so I know both sides as I have also worked in Government run services. If only some one said "No"...
It was a good job that the Baroness was a shop-keeper, and saved all that money and gold for the next generation of Government

This country can not afford another Labour Government, we have nothing left to fritter away...

I was raised in the 70's in area of mines and steel works, Labour and the unions scared the wits out, the way that families were split apart during the steel and miners strikes, terrible.
In the 60's and 70's we also had an abundance of motorbike and car manufacturers.
The heart of the engine of England was ripped from this country.

So I bow to FLO saying that our opinions will always be poles apart.

by **FLO** » 19 Jul 2010, 22:08

Hi Bill

Beg to differ

The Miners Strike saw thousands of miners and their families abused and assaulted and declared 'Enemies' by the police and Thatcher.

As a lesson in how capitalism works, the strike was invaluable. It showed that the state was not neutral and could easily expand its powers to criminalise labour activity.Newspaper and media coverage was completely biased.

The miners and unions did not rip families apart, the state did that.

However it was also a lesson in how socialism could work. women kept these communities going, and supporters and donations flooded in from across the country.

New Labour most definately are not old socialists, I only wish they were.....

"Socialism is an ideology founded on optimism - the hope that the world could be a better place if its relations are rooted in co-operation rather than competition, and solidarity rather than insularity"

Here endeth my sermon

Flo

by **Kojak** » 19 Jul 2010, 23:14

Everyone has the right to strike. Everyone has the right NOT to strike, that was the cause of the conflict and the reason why policing was necessary at pit gates. Bully boy Scargill arrogantly thought he could intimidate people who wanted to work so he organised "flying" pickets. Many of the miners "abused and assaulted" were themselves abusing and assaulting "scabs" ie. miners who wanted to work and voted against the strike. I worked in a Social Security strike centre on that strike and came in for plenty of abuse myself - despite the fact that we were paying State Benefit for striking miner's dependants!

by **snoopy2** » 19 Jul 2010, 23:32

How about going back to the thread on snorkelling? Going over old ground gets no-where and obviously there is never going to be agreement and it just might end up acrimonious.

by **bill** » 20 Jul 2010, 10:08

Sorry Flo, that's not what I saw, and I agree with Kojak. The outrageous way unions reacted was awful.

Socialism = Unions = Labour (or, New) = Bad News

Snorkelling at Marathounda is excellent or round the corner at St. Niks.

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