2.5% More Expensive Next Year

[bill]

Sorry Flo, that's not what I saw, and I agree with Kojak. The outrageous way unions reacted was awful.

Socialism = Unions = Labour (or, New) = Bad News


Snorkelling at Marathounda is excellent or round the corner at St. Niks.

[snoopy2]

Thanks for that Bill - Marathounda is one of our favourite spots - love th goats and as daughter lures them along the beach away from sunseekers with the odd bicuit or three - the goats love her.

[FLO]

Unions are not my enemy,they exist to protect me from being exploited by my employers. We are supposed to live in a society where people have the right to withdraw their labour (its called the free world). We already have the most stringent unions laws in the westen world and now we are going to see even harsher ones if the ConDems have their way.

Unions have served me well in my many years of employment, with the savage cuts we may not have too long to wait before you or someone you love's terms and conditions are taken away.

To not belong to a Union at this time is perilous.

best wishes

Flo

Kickin' ass for the working class...

[snoopy2]

Now you have got me off snorkelling and into the debate Flo - quite right - i agree - unions are the only protection people have against injustices in the system be ye high or low. What hope is there in a democracy if there is not a system that allows fair hearing for all. The unions speak for all - not just working class but managers high fliers - if there has been an injustice then the union is there to redress the balance ergo - democracy. But i still like the to and fro on snorkelling better than this debate!

[MacDuff]

The great thing about a debate is that one can choose not to participate if one doesn't like the subject.

Having spent 43 years of my life as the guy where the buck stopped, I always recognised that in businesses where there are a substantial number of employees, management cannot deal with each of them on an individual basis. Those employees require a body that represnts their interests. It can be named an association, a negotiating committee or a union. Equally, there is frequently a need for businesses that are similar in type, to jointly form an organization to represent them in negotiation.

In the commercial world, it is sensible for both those parties to recognize that the survival and good health of the business upon which both are dependant is critical. Is that "exploitation"? If so, of whom and by whom. Perhaps it reflects democracy. There is a challenge for those who are employed by government bodies, in that there is no "profit". This can result in some thinking that it is O.K. to squeeze the government lemon until the pips squeak. But the government lemon is the taxpayers pocket. Who suffers the injustice?

Good management knows that it cannot be better than it's staff. Good staff tend to recognize good management. The best example I can think of, is Vauxhall Motors at a time when it had 23,000 employees. Unique in British industry, Vauxhall never had a strike when Sir Reginald Pearson was M.D. and Vice-Chairman. But, he started at age 16, on the shop floor. I can recall having a pint in a pub in Harpenden with Pearson and Jim Weeber, senior shop steward at the Dunstable plant (Bedford trucks). Jim was a declared communist. The two got on famously. Another at the bar that evening was Sir Harold Wernher - Chairman of Electrolux.

In my view it would serve the U.K. well if people were to abandon their apparently automatic opposition to anything and everything that "THEY" do or say. It is self destructive and has brought Britain to it's financial knees. Get the act together, or in this competitive world , the U.K. has only one route----- DOWN!

To decry an elected Socialist government - which the U.K. electorate chose to elect three times, as pursuing Conservative policies, is little more than laughable.

Of course we will continue to disagree about policies - if the Brown/Blair governments were pursuing Conservative policies, why were they not thrown out by the "true" socialists, but re-elected?

This debate was commenced by D and E commenting upon the ConDem government - which unlike the Brown/Blair predecessor was elected by a majority of the British population, which had cried "enough" about Brown, introducing increased tax. Was that not expected?

As for snorkelling, I am to depart in a couple of days to Cuba for six weeks. Plenty of places to snorkel - a paradise! Also, an opportunity to check up on "Socialismo" and it's benefits. No word yet of the food rations going up, 2.2 kg of rice per month following 51 years of pursuit of the true believe.

Sorry I won't be here to pursue the debate, and I cannot do so from Cuba. Internet not being available to the public - I wonder why?

My regards to all contributors to this forum, to Symi and the Symiots, all of whom have the benefits of democracy! Bye

[snoopy2]

Macduff - have a nice time but stop being such a pedant!!!

[snoopy2]

Also having read your piece again - are you real!!!

[MacDuff]

Thank you Snoops. May I humbly suggest that you should note that in politics perception is critical. If the details don't fit the individual's perception, they should be discarded? Any way, we can both go and snorkel in our respective patches - don't get scratched by a reef! My regards tae Fitty and Torry - which reminds me that "they" still don't allow parking beneath the high wall of Craiginches.

[FLO]

Cuba has a better health and education system than the USA - we can all pick examples to fit our arguments. Brown and Blair were not thrown out by true socialists as politicians sacrifice principles every day of the week for power - whichever party they are in. One thing I love about our country is the freedom with which we can critice those in power. If politicians are letting down our country we have a duty and a right to say so. I can answer your question -

In the commercial world, it is sensible for both those parties to recognize that the survival and good health of the business upon which both are dependant is critical. Is that "exploitation"? If so, of whom and by whom

Answer - When you have owners and managers retiring with vast pensions and lump sums whilst employees are deprived of pensions because of no more money in the pot - trust me, it is painfully clear who has the power are who are the the exploited.

Enjoy Cuba

best wishes
Flo

[D and E]

Thanks to all of you for making this my most succesful (by that I mean lengthy) thread to date.

Poor MacDuff in news starved Cuba won't have seen today's headlines that show that Brown's policies during the recession are now being proven right by economic growth results far in excess of the predictions of the spin during the election. This is resulting in HM Treasury getting billions more tax revenue than expected yet no acknowledgement of this from the ConDems which just goes to show that it is political dogma that rules their economic policies.

[bill]

Perhaps it's the fact that Europe is relieved that the British Socialist Government has been ousted, and normal service resumed.

After the horse has bolted...